Backstory: Justin is a friend on Facebook. He is an atheist turned Christian like me. Now he likes to poke fun at atheists sometimes. (At the start of this conversation below, Justin didn't know I became a Christian.)
Facebook Post
Justin Ryan Rhine
I was arguing with an atheist who doesn’t believe the Bible because it has "talking animals" in it.
I said....
"That's a strange thing for a monkey to say."
We haven't spoken since.
Reply to Post
Andrew Kennedy
Good burn. However, perhaps a more loving way to have made the point was to call oneself the ‘monkey’ for self-deprecation humor, and not to offend the atheist. That’s only if you’re trying to win the argument AND show love and perhaps convert opinions. But yes, if your message is to burn them, then well done. ☺️
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Justin Ryan Rhine
Andrew Kennedy The point was if atheism is accurate, and we are in fact talking monkeys...then that criticism of the Bible is not very compelling. If an atheist takes that as a burn...that's their problem with their own position. I don't know atheists who are that fragile anyways.
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Andrew Kennedy
Justin Ryan Rhine Yes, I received your point. It was a good one at that. Sounds like you are more about making a point rather than showing them love. Do I have that accurate? Just curious. Well done I suppose if that is the case.
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Justin Ryan Rhine
Andrew Kennedy I know your shtick. You are an atheist. There's a time for showing love...and a time for making a joke, and a time for war. It wasn't particularly serious. If someone consents to a public disagreement imposing "love" and "respect for feelings" on one side just feels like trying to neuter the debate. I don't think his feelings were hurt...and if they were I hope he abandons his position since it insults his soul.
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Andrew Kennedy
Justin Ryan Rhine cool. Excellent points. What is my shtick?
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Justin Ryan Rhine
Andrew Kennedy don't you accuse Christians of being unloving as a way of neutering the strength of their argument? It seems you suggested I refer to myself as the monkey and assume the atheists’ position so they do not have to experience the discomfort of what could be perceived as ridicule? You know how atheist vs theist debates on Facebook go. They generally start off as ridicule of the theist and most theists haven't developed their wit or banter skills to contend with that type of criticism. I learned from atheists how to debate atheists. I was one for 20 years. My position is usually that multiple ideas can be true and that doesn't invalidate the validity of another position. For example, I love evolutionary psychology. I enjoy studying biology. I think evolutionary psychology is the most accurate form of psychological evaluation. People are driven by simple unconscious realities. But...people are also extremely complex and don't even make sense beyond that. Human behavior can be wildly complex. So, for complex analysis I would read Carl Jung. Then you start recognizing an entirely other dimension the mind is capable of. People should study both. Both are profoundly true...but Jungians might dismiss evolutionary biology and Evolutionary biologists might call Jung a Quack or pseudo intellectual. In either case that assumption is incorrect. I believe life evolves but I do not believe evolution explains the origin of life. I reached that conclusion by studying evolution. There are countless evolutionary biologists who agree. I also understand the desire to extrapolate and assume that a process we see doesn't have a beginning or an end point. I'm convinced humans are more like Gods than they are like monkeys...but if we have some primate cousins in our family tree...so be it. I don't have an explanation for how God could or would do anything...and I don't impose limitations on an infinite being.
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Andrew Kennedy
Cool. Excellent points. I understand your experience as a former atheist left you with a profound understanding of how to debate them best. Maybe your way of debating them is indeed the best way and is the right way. My experience, as now a former atheist as well, left me with a little different take. I have a profound respect and deep genuine love for atheists because I was one. I love hearing what they have to say. I can see myself in them in many ways. I love thinking, 'yep, that was me!' Loving them is like how God may have loved me through that period. I think you make good points. I think they make good points sometimes too. Atheists come in all shapes and sizes, some intelligent, some not so much, some fragile and some extremely strong. Just like humans of other faiths. I remember when I was debating as an atheist and occasionally a strong Christian would powerfully absorb the arguments I was throwing at them with genuine love and compassion without snapping back witty insults of their own even though they could. They were not even shocked, surprised or confused in any way with my barrage of facts and strong opinions. It took me off-guard. I would respect them. They would truly listen and show respect and love back despite what I gave them. Those were the kind of people that actually opened my eyes. They are very rare. Then that respect could turn into an opening for more. A 'mustard seed' if you will. (I used to make fun of that analogy.) That, perhaps maybe, I don't know everything I am saying is 100% correct, and then, maybe the door can open for more light to enter back into my heart. I am proof that the door is never fully closed while alive. You are too. I believe you are doing your best and are extremely intelligent. Just another take from a former atheist too. I saw your post and it intrigued me and felt the urge to gently chime in. Either way best wishes and much respect, brother. You do you and I love ya for it.
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Vanessa Wells-Rhine
Andrew Kennedy This is a phenomenal response. 🙌🏼
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Justin Ryan Rhine
Andrew Kennedy well put...and point taken. You are correct. I have always struggled to love people in general and my basic temperament is highly disagreeable. I have had to come to terms with that often being my problem and not everyone else in the world. I do care about my atheist friends and I do need to be more Like Christ than focused on "debate" or winning/outwitting. I appreciate your input and your journey. Thanks Andrew 👍